They’re not fake, just besides the point. We shouldn’t purity test a country that’s being invaded, regardless of whether it’s Palestine or Ukraine. Granted Ukraine has less reason for radicalism than Palestine does, but they make up that with CIA interference.
We shouldn’t purity test a country that’s being invaded, regardless of whether it’s Palestine or Ukraine
An absurd thing to say when one of the countries is being genocided with western support and the other is run by actual seig-heiling nazis who were doing ethnic cleansing also with western support. To equivocate between the two is nonsensical, It’s the geopolitical version of equivocating between kicking in a door as part of a robbery and kicking in a door as part of a hostage rescue operation. But if you really must reduce everything down to black and white principles about what is and isn’t acceptable, try this one: There is never a good reason to side with nazis.
Also, I curse whoever came up with the thought-terminating cliche that is “purity testing”. In cooking and chemistry, in metallurgy and biology and a million other things, you need “purity testing” to achieve anything, because it turns out that making a habit of disregarding basic standards consistently leads to failure and disaster. I don’t cook with dirt, I don’t build out of bubblegum, I dont make tea with metal shavings and I don’t give critical support to genocidal goose-steppers.
I dislike the way “purity test” is used to shut down any expectation that we can or should demand better from our leadership. However, when you start purity testing a country collectively like this and ignore the realities of what a defeat or victory would mean for the people living there that’s not good.
The Nazi battalions are not the entirety of what Ukraine is as a nation.
The Nazi battalions are not the entirety of what Ukraine Germany is as a nation.
Yeah they’re only in charge, hardly anything important. But you’re right, I have changed my mind and now think that ten years of government-sponsored ethnic cleansing in eastern Ukraine is an acceptable price to pay for keeping the savage Muscovite on his toes
It is a proxy for an empire with even bigger bloodstains on its hands than Nazi Germany. The fact that NATO, and the US particularly, supports Ukraine to the point of making this war continue at all, rather than ending the same year it started, is evidence that the long term goals of empire are served by meeting Russia in the front. You might think it’s not fair to judge Ukraine for the actions or intentions of their supporters, but ultimately I’m concerned with the end of imperialism and capitalism; to “support” Ukraine (which in practice means supporting the military industrial complex) just means supporting my own oppression as a subject of American empire.
You’ll find that it’s the “centrists” that most support Ukraine. The far-left and far-right tend to be the ones that don’t. Even then support for Ukraine has been quite muted. This suggests that support for Ukraine is based more on a naive belief in democratic values and multilateralism than some furtherance of Western aims.
That said, I don’t think the war started that way. I think Biden willfully created this war to give America leverage over Europe and to rally the American populace around the flag. I also think NATO expansion into Ukraine (aside from being unrealistic) would not be a good thing. Regardless though I think support for Ukraine is driven by people who still have faith in the values of the west rather than just the might of the west.
You are saying that ethnicity gives you an automatic unbreakable political convictions? Good, i’m very glad all the Slavic neonazis are the figment of my imagination, it would be impossible to support ideology that literally wanted to exterminate their people! Not to mention certain Jewish prime minister straight up publicly whitewashed Hitler of holocaust.
I honestly believe that ethnic minorities in Eastern Ukraine are 100% better off under the current Russian military occupation than they were under the NATO backed fascist government that came to power via coup in 2014. I also honestly believe that just about everyone in Ukraine will undoubtedly be better off if Ukraine concedes that territory to Russia as soon as possible rather than continue to throw away lives into a meat grinder to stall an inevitable conclusion.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think it’s 100%, and the people there should have a say in the matter. If the people there wanted that they could easily have hopped the border, the fact that they didn’t voluntarily do so means something.
The ones who did in Crimea by voting to join Russia weren’t recognized internationally. In general though, if you’re in the middle of Ukraine and your family has lived there for centuries, even when Western backed fascists take over the country and start shelling you in the civil war, would you easily make the decision to leave for Russia instead of staying, trying to survive however you can? I think if people legitimately were invested in preserving the Ukrainian state’s territorial integrity, the press gangs wouldn’t be abducting people with vans, and the militias for the LPR and DPR wouldn’t have been able to recruit much of anyone at all.
In Crimea they, when surveyed, said they would prefer to join Russia. That isn’t the same as voting to join Russia. It was non-binding and people don’t vote the same when something’s non-binding, sometimes they just vote out of protest regarding the state of the country. This isn’t to say Crimeans didn’t want to join Russia, we don’t know. Nobody knows.
I think if I was in a situation that would warrant Russian military intervention, and Russia was so close by, I would leave instead of hoping for Russian occupation.
I don’t really know about the press gangs.
I don’t know how trustworthy any information about the LPR/DPR recruitment numbers could be. They have an interest in presenting high numbers, and there’d be no way to distinguish between Russian citizens and Ukrainian citizens from the outside.
Ukraine loses the war within the next 24 months since it has outlived its usefulness, the US pivots to the Pacific, and Europe doesn’t have the capacity to support it. What do you think happens when these reasonable moderates wearing Black Suns and Tottenkopf patches, armed to the teeth by NATO with any kind of weapon you can think of, are no longer fighting Russia?
Okay so what? They’re getting javelin missile launchers, tanks, drones, and who knows what else. Do you think the Azov Battalion would otherwise have access to that level of weaponry?
Pictured: fake news according to western “leftists”:
They’re not fake, just besides the point. We shouldn’t purity test a country that’s being invaded, regardless of whether it’s Palestine or Ukraine. Granted Ukraine has less reason for radicalism than Palestine does, but they make up that with CIA interference.
An absurd thing to say when one of the countries is being genocided with western support and the other is run by actual seig-heiling nazis who were doing ethnic cleansing also with western support. To equivocate between the two is nonsensical, It’s the geopolitical version of equivocating between kicking in a door as part of a robbery and kicking in a door as part of a hostage rescue operation. But if you really must reduce everything down to black and white principles about what is and isn’t acceptable, try this one: There is never a good reason to side with nazis.
Also, I curse whoever came up with the thought-terminating cliche that is “purity testing”. In cooking and chemistry, in metallurgy and biology and a million other things, you need “purity testing” to achieve anything, because it turns out that making a habit of disregarding basic standards consistently leads to failure and disaster. I don’t cook with dirt, I don’t build out of bubblegum, I dont make tea with metal shavings and I don’t give critical support to genocidal goose-steppers.
I dislike the way “purity test” is used to shut down any expectation that we can or should demand better from our leadership. However, when you start purity testing a country collectively like this and ignore the realities of what a defeat or victory would mean for the people living there that’s not good.
The Nazi battalions are not the entirety of what Ukraine is as a nation.
Yeah they’re only in charge, hardly anything important. But you’re right, I have changed my mind and now think that ten years of government-sponsored ethnic cleansing in eastern Ukraine is an acceptable price to pay for keeping the savage Muscovite on his toes
Germany didn’t have a Jewish president.
This isn’t to say that absolves Ukraine of all it’s issues, but it’s not Germany.
It is a proxy for an empire with even bigger bloodstains on its hands than Nazi Germany. The fact that NATO, and the US particularly, supports Ukraine to the point of making this war continue at all, rather than ending the same year it started, is evidence that the long term goals of empire are served by meeting Russia in the front. You might think it’s not fair to judge Ukraine for the actions or intentions of their supporters, but ultimately I’m concerned with the end of imperialism and capitalism; to “support” Ukraine (which in practice means supporting the military industrial complex) just means supporting my own oppression as a subject of American empire.
You’ll find that it’s the “centrists” that most support Ukraine. The far-left and far-right tend to be the ones that don’t. Even then support for Ukraine has been quite muted. This suggests that support for Ukraine is based more on a naive belief in democratic values and multilateralism than some furtherance of Western aims.
That said, I don’t think the war started that way. I think Biden willfully created this war to give America leverage over Europe and to rally the American populace around the flag. I also think NATO expansion into Ukraine (aside from being unrealistic) would not be a good thing. Regardless though I think support for Ukraine is driven by people who still have faith in the values of the west rather than just the might of the west.
You are saying that ethnicity gives you an automatic unbreakable political convictions? Good, i’m very glad all the Slavic neonazis are the figment of my imagination, it would be impossible to support ideology that literally wanted to exterminate their people! Not to mention certain Jewish prime minister straight up publicly whitewashed Hitler of holocaust.
As I said, that wasn’t meant to be an argument. Just to illustrate that a find and replace approach isn’t appropriate.
Ukraine and Nazi Germany are wildly different.
I honestly believe that ethnic minorities in Eastern Ukraine are 100% better off under the current Russian military occupation than they were under the NATO backed fascist government that came to power via coup in 2014. I also honestly believe that just about everyone in Ukraine will undoubtedly be better off if Ukraine concedes that territory to Russia as soon as possible rather than continue to throw away lives into a meat grinder to stall an inevitable conclusion.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think it’s 100%, and the people there should have a say in the matter. If the people there wanted that they could easily have hopped the border, the fact that they didn’t voluntarily do so means something.
The ones who did in Crimea by voting to join Russia weren’t recognized internationally. In general though, if you’re in the middle of Ukraine and your family has lived there for centuries, even when Western backed fascists take over the country and start shelling you in the civil war, would you easily make the decision to leave for Russia instead of staying, trying to survive however you can? I think if people legitimately were invested in preserving the Ukrainian state’s territorial integrity, the press gangs wouldn’t be abducting people with vans, and the militias for the LPR and DPR wouldn’t have been able to recruit much of anyone at all.
In Crimea they, when surveyed, said they would prefer to join Russia. That isn’t the same as voting to join Russia. It was non-binding and people don’t vote the same when something’s non-binding, sometimes they just vote out of protest regarding the state of the country. This isn’t to say Crimeans didn’t want to join Russia, we don’t know. Nobody knows.
I think if I was in a situation that would warrant Russian military intervention, and Russia was so close by, I would leave instead of hoping for Russian occupation.
I don’t really know about the press gangs.
I don’t know how trustworthy any information about the LPR/DPR recruitment numbers could be. They have an interest in presenting high numbers, and there’d be no way to distinguish between Russian citizens and Ukrainian citizens from the outside.
Ukraine loses the war within the next 24 months since it has outlived its usefulness, the US pivots to the Pacific, and Europe doesn’t have the capacity to support it. What do you think happens when these reasonable moderates wearing Black Suns and Tottenkopf patches, armed to the teeth by NATO with any kind of weapon you can think of, are no longer fighting Russia?
Ever hear of operation Cyclone?
You say that as if NATO is giving Ukraine any more than the bare minimum weapons it needs. This ain’t Israel.
Okay so what? They’re getting javelin missile launchers, tanks, drones, and who knows what else. Do you think the Azov Battalion would otherwise have access to that level of weaponry?
!RemindMe 9/11 2: Ukraine in the Membrane
@JamBandFan1996@lemmy.ml