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The best-funded media have sold the message that college students and politically-active aunties who have seen one too many local children die are the elites. The ‘elite’ label can be stuck on anyone who exerts influence, it implies power pejoratively but not descriptively. That’s why revolutionaries use more precise terms like capital owner instead.
Of course, I don’t like the term “elite” either and honestly should have altered the meme
It’s always “Won’t somebody please think of the children?!?!” till kids get shot then it’s “eh who cares. That’s the price of freedom baby!!!”
I get the point we’re trying to make but it’s a little disingenuous because the elite has the backing of institutions like the military and police
And somehow the people with red hats and guns end up supporting those institutions
And somehow people resist around the world even without being armed but keep making excuses for people refusing.
The military and the police are made up of people (including people in red hats with guns).
Americans.
They call themselves ‘elites’ but the vast majority of them have achieved everything in life on zero merit.
But if a stretch calling Trump supporters “people”.
Why are people upvoting this? Being against fascism doesn’t mean starting a reverse fascism to segregate people who have been mislead to support an ideology that doesn’t benefit them.
I am in favor of segregating nazis from society. If this makes me a reverse fascist, I accept the label.
The real victims of the holocaust were the Nazis during the Nuremberg trials!!1
I didn’t say they trump supporters are victims. They have been mislead to believe a far right ideology will result in better living conditions for themselves even though it only serves the rich. You also can’t punish half of a population and it doesn’t solve anything either.
I disagree.
Thanks for your input
Nazis are people too, horrible people that deserve the harshest punishment but people.
But at what cost!?
Collapse and revolution are the same thing. And you can’t guillotine anyone, as a rule, without due process at a minimum. Swap out the word “elites” in your comment with any other group name and it should swiftly become clear why.
It’s one of the cruel jokes of the world that those who call for war the loudest are those who’ve never seen it, while those who’ve fought in them are the ones who wait until it’s absolutely necessary to do so again - or who actually appreciate what “absolutely necessary” means.
You can in fact guillotine people without due process, laws are upheld for the ruling class of society. Revolution is the conquest of political power by the revolutionary class in society. Simply saying “violence bad” because it’s directed against capitalists and fascists by saying it can be used against anyone is not an argument.
Perhaps “can” want the right word. I’m aware we technically “can” run around guillotining our neighbors without due process. We shouldn’t.
“Saying ‘violence bad’ because it’s directed against capitalists and fascists…”
I’ll be sure to pass that along to anyone who says that. I’m saying war is bad, period. Fascists are an example of the kinds of people that make war necessary. And it may yet come to that. But it hasn’t yet. Our democracy has not been dismantled. Diplomatic options remain available to us. We’re very likely going to see a shift in power come midterms - which itself demonstrates why war is not yet needed.
I’m not saying war is never called for, and nobody ever deserves to die. The overwhelming majority of the people I’ve killed deserved to die. But war isn’t that cut and dried. The scenario where we address the problems we’re having without a revolution remains drastically superior and preferable to the scenario where we must fight a revolution.
Our democracy has not been dismantled
If you want to claim to have a democracy, you admit that the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, the enslavers of Libya, the genocidaires of Palestine represent your interests, and that you are opposed to the liberation of the world from them.
Diplomatic options remain available to us
Like what?
And remember, these options should not be ignorable by them. There should be a cost that could be enforced upon them if they decide to not agree to demands.We’re very likely going to see a shift in power come midterms
I highly doubt that. I predict that there will be no shift in power and that your leadership will still just be the red-blue uniparty the way it has been for more than a century.
The overwhelming majority of the people I’ve killed deserved to die. But war isn’t that cut and dried
Let me guess, you were an invader into either Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, or somewhere else, and you killed people who were defending against your invasion, weren’t you?
Edit: Seems like you admit to having been a colonial invader. In what world do the people you have killed “deserved to die”?The scenario where we address the problems we’re having without a revolution remains drastically superior and preferable to the scenario where we must fight a revolution
That scenario that you find preferable is simply not feasible. You have no way of stopping capitalism and colonialism by just politely asking the people that are economically interested in inflicting those horrors upon the world.
you can’t guillotine anyone
you can go back a couple chapters in the history books and they did just that multiple times. it’s an unfortunate and scary proposition, but you can’t deny that it works.
Oh it works alright. The problem is that the guillotines don’t stop falling when all the people who deserve to die have done so. Sure, using a flamethrower to kill the spider in your kid’s room will “work” but there’s an extra detail or two that might be getting overlooked there.
I recommend you acquaint yourself with actual history instead of repeating myths. Socialist revolutions have shown themselves to be a very reliable way of improving their people’s living standards.
There is a reason we identify bourgeoisie through their direct connection to the system of production as owners of the means of production. You can’t swap out elite for “any other group” because the reasoning would be gone. “Any other group” is not directly responsible for the impoverishment of the imperial periphery, for their acute destitution. “Any other group” is not funding paramilitary death squads to control resources that make number go up. “Any other group” doesn’t knowingly uphold the system that makes homelessness necessary. “Any other group” doesn’t regularly commit genocides. If you are comfortable trying to vote these people out of existence feel free to walk into that swamp but don’t try convincing others to do so.
I understand your fear. I am also scared. I’m deathly fucking terrified of revolution. I am terrified of what the state will do to me for daring to challenge them. I am terrified of what they will do to the people I love. I am terrified of what it will take for the average American to fight back. I desperately want to run and flee the country but we are beyond that epoch. There is no safe place to run to. It is cowardice to blind yourself and believe we can simply ask them to stop. Hell, it isn’t just cowardice, it’s dangerous. The longer we wait to end this system the more people it will slaughter. I fear the state but my fear is outweighed by the shame of doing nothing while I watch it commit unspeakable acts in my name.
Revolution is not a tea party or a bed of roses. Any revolutionary will tell you this, all of them know it. I know in my heart I won’t live to my parents age. I know in my heart I will see and experience horrors they have never suffered. Most likely I die a miserable lonely death not even knowing the fates of those I love. And I’m angry about it.
Collapse is already coming, climate change is going to fuck us. If we are going to collapse anyway why not revolt and save those who can be saved. They certainly won’t be saved by our current leadership.
It’s good to see a kindred spirit. I couldn’t have said it better myself. And if revolution comes, men like me are the ones who everyone downvoting me will end up following, because I’ve already been through war and know exactly what to do and what to expect. I pity those foolish enough to mistake my caution, and my desire for peaceful methods, as either cowardice or inability. When the violence they’re calling for comes, I’ll be out there showing them what real violence actually looks like while they’re shitting their pants, because they have no idea but I regretfully know all too well.
That said, the point where diplomacy and due process get abandoned and the fee of liberty gets its thirst quenched isn’t here. Our democracy has not collapsed. Elections still happen - we’ll likely be seeing a major power shift in the midterms.
My fear is not what the government will do if we fight them. That’s predictable and frankly very manageable. My greater fear is what will happen after we’ve “won.” I fear what we will do. Because if you think the answer is “put down our weapons” then you haven’t read the third act of many revolutions in history.
Our democracy has not collapsed
Yours is a “democracy” of slavers and genocidaires, quite literally. If it hasn’t collapsed, it should.
Elections still happen - we’ll likely be seeing a major power shift in the midterms
Elections are not a viable instrument for effecting relevant change. You are not even presented with relevant choices.
My greater fear is what will happen after we’ve “won.” I fear what we will do. Because if you think the answer is “put down our weapons” then you haven’t read the third act of many revolutions in history
Socialist revolutions have historically been very successful in improving their people’s living standards. Why would one “fear” that?
If everyone in the world thought like you, we’d have this shit sorted out in two weeks (sincere)
No, they are not. The Roman Empire got collapse without a revolution, for example.
That’s true. Just because all revolutions are collapses doesn’t mean all collapses are revolutions. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say revolution goes hand in hand with collapse, even if the reverse isn’t equally true.
There were also revolutions without collapse, like 1974 revolution in Portugal as the most recent example.
The addition of the red hat means the people pictured actually support the elites in question.
Having said that, you’re talking about violent revolution. Look at basically every example in history. They all get much worse before they get better. The people that need to die, die. Sure. And it’s satisfying because those people historically have grown beyond what conventional institutions of justice could do anything about. Problem is, the revolution doesn’t just stop once the problem is gone. People don’t stop dying, they just stop deserving it.
Point is, people are armed as a desperate last resort that we pray we will never need, because people who’ve actually fought in wars know that outcome is far worse and far more horrifying than any diplomatic compromise would have been. War is not how you solve a handful of wealthy elites who are effectively above the law. It’s how you solve families being executed in the streets or put into concentration camps. We’re not there yet. Though admittedly we’re closer than we’ve ever been - ironically thanks to people in red hats.
They all get much worse before they get better. The people that need to die, die. Sure. And it’s satisfying because those people historically have grown beyond what conventional institutions of justice could do anything about. Problem is, the revolution doesn’t just stop once the problem is gone. People don’t stop dying, they just stop deserving it.
Source: saw it in a reddit meme.
It’s how you solve families being executed in the streets or put into concentration camps. We’re not there yet.
You objectively are, and have been for a long time.
History books*
And show me. I’ll let your inability to do so speak for itself.
Yeah? Which “history books” would those be?
Revolution has dramatically improved the lives of the people in most cases. They usually have a chaotic period of stabilization, but in the long run bring immense positives, especially in socialist countries.
Of course they do. Historically they’ve only happened when a country reached a point where there were was no other recourse. At that point, of course they’re going to make things better - “worse” isn’t really a possibility when revolution becomes necessary, which is kind of the point. Leaping to war before that point, on the other hand… well, there aren’t any examples of that which come to mind. Which suggests that, on the bright side, people apparently tend not to resort to revolution until it’s actually required.
There’s no path to fixing capitalism, though. That’s the point.
Historically they’ve only happened when a country reached a point where there were was no other recourse
Hindsight 20/20 or something like that.
I am very confident that you would not be saying this about the Russian Empire in its later years.
We’re not there yet.
Which is exactly why a revolution hasn’t happened yet. Revolutions do not occur until every other option has been tried and the people find their circumstances utterly intolerable. I advocate for revolution because we will eventually reach that point and need to be prepared for when that revolutionary potential is ripe. I need people to understand that the class division of society cannot be overcome by using the tools handed to us by the ruling class, that we must make our own through a vanguard party that can turn revolutionary potential into directed revolutionary action. I am not saying REVOLUTION NOW because we are not organized enough and the national proletariat are not so desperate. I am saying revolution is the only way however, as awful as it will inevitably be.
Edit: i want to stress that premature revolutions are dangerous. The premature revolution in the Weimar Republic contributed to the rise of fascism. Which is again why professional revolutionaries in the form of a vanguard party is necessary. We must have people who make revolution their life so that they understand how ready we are in a way the average person does not.
100%. I’m with you there. And I am prepared, very probably far more so than any of the people downvoting me, who will ironically end up following men like me when the real violence begins (assuming they don’t just hide) precisely because we’ve been through it and know what to expect and what to be ready for - which, in turn, is exactly why we will do everything we can to prevent it from coming to that.
Lol. Good bit.
Well, just look at the majority of people and their ideology. The next revolution, wherever it happens is going to be fascist. The only thing we could do is propaganda (and even that is really hard to do well).
Fascists are not revolutionary, they seek to entrench the present system violently. This is why voting cannot stop them, only revolution can.
Yes, but if the revolution happens, they will definitely make it fascist. That’s what I was trying to say (but I did it somewhat shitily). We really need to be careful to protect ourselves and others in the event of revolution (both from other dangerous people and from fascist ideology).
How would they make it fascist? All of the fascists are organized within the existing state, therefore an assault on the capitalist state would also take out the fascist levers of power. Only organized socialists could take power.
Most people aren’t really into ideology (or Wikipedia for that matter). They just figure out the system is the problem. The only people being an actual part of the revolution would ve intellectuals, easy to repress. That would make the revolution from an actual revolution to the people enrolling a Nazi into power and doing nothing else.
Well yes, technically that would just be a repressed revolution. Aparently I just parroted the OP’s point and haven’t added anything that important. Shit.
But the ruling class doesn’t have to do an organized attempt of repression, they can just be done by people themselves.
Any revolution, in order to happen, needs an organized party that is trusted and supported by the rest of the working classes. Rather than being the only ones a part of the revolution, it is the job of the vanguard to lead the revolution. Without that support it’s just a coup and would fail.
Fascist don’t “revolt” because they do not inact revolutionary change. They preserve the existing dominance of capital. They also aren’t the majority of people, they only seem that way in the western context. Most people do not live in imperial core nations. The next big revolutions will come out of Africa, Latin America, and Asia. These revolutions will weaken the imperial states to the point that they to can be revolted against (imo)
You are not going to get any diplomatic compromises if elites don’t believe you can guillotine them. Everything is just going to get worse until you get either collapse or revolution.
