I don’t think it’s possible to look at the Russia-Ukraine war without considering the role of NATO. I care about ending this war which is devastating to working class people. I don’t think it’s a truthful analysis to say that Russia is just a big bully here who holds all the cards. If you look at Russia’s actions, most escalations on Russia’s side have been a reaction to actions from NATO. To think that more escalation from NATO will lead to a quicker end to the war is contrary to this historic pattern. Russia sees NATO as an existential threat, so it has a lot of motivation to keep fighting Ukraine to prevent NATO from spreading further to Russia’s border. NATO’s actions, to increase aggression towards Russia, only increase Russia’s motivation to keep fighting. If NATO were to pull back from Ukraine, make concessions to Russia that it will not expand further, and will allow Russia to trade and collaborate with European countries, then Russia has very little incentive to keep fighting Ukraine because they no longer see an existential threat. For Ukrainians it is devastating to be in the middle in this conflict, while not having any influence on the course of the war. But it’s a reality that I cannot change. All I can do is pressure my own government to work towards peace instead of continued aggression.
If you look at Russia’s actions, most escalations on Russia’s side have been a reaction to actions from NATO.
Is your argument reallly that Russia’s invasion is justified because Russia was provoked? So a good country that should be supported, totally has the right to invade another one if the other one is doing something not to your liking?
Russia sees NATO as an existential threat, so it has a lot of motivation
Who cares? I mean, it is a lie as the head of Russian state only really cares for money and power. But even if that would be true, that Russia would see NATO as an existential threat. Who cares? You should support Ukraine in its fight for existence and independence even if that pisses Russia. NATO or Ukraine have no obligation to please Russia.
On the contrary, Europe and other countries should take concrete actions to protect themselves. There is an obvious aggressor. If the aggressor sees your safety as their existential threat, and the aggressor is invading other countries, your only reasonable option is to be prepared to defend yourself and help others who are fighting for their existence and their independence. There’s no other choice unless your argument is “just give the aggressor what it wants, surely it’s gonna fix the problem”. And that in particular is very, very, very well studied to be wrong. An aggressor like that never stops given reduced resistance.
Everybody who is at risk of being attacked by the most prolific invader in the world that has been holding most of the world in colonial subjugation for the past few centuries.
Who cares? You should support Ukraine in its fight for existence and independence even if that pisses Russia.
You don’t support Ukraine’s independence from NATO, and you don’t support its people who very much do not want to keep getting abducted off the streets.
Also, why should one care about the existence of nazi governments, like nazi Germany, the US, today’s nazi Germany, Ukraine, etc. over the well-being of the people who are attacked by them?
NATO or Ukraine have no obligation to please Russia.
“Nazi Germany has no obligation to please the USSR”.
On the contrary, Europe and other countries should take concrete actions to protect themselves.
Why? Why should the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, the genocidaires of Palestine be protected?
There is an obvious aggressor. If the aggressor sees your safety as their existential threat, and the aggressor is invading other countries, your only reasonable option is to be prepared to defend yourself and help others who are fighting for their existence and their independence
So, now, you support Russia against the most prolific invader in the world that has been invading other countries, committing genocides, and pushing for war with Russia? You seem to be very confused.
NATO expansion against Russia’s borders has been one of their red lines for over 40 years at this point. The West knew exactly how Russia would respond, and pushed Ukraine to join deliberately. This is a proxy war, and one the West appears to be tiring of; eventually they will lose interest altogether and Ukraine will be forced to surrender.
I’m not making any moral judgements. I care about ending the suffering that came from this war, and I think your analysis is based on wishful thinking and fantasy stories that you have been told about Ukraine and NATO. There’s too much for me to dissect to continue this conversation.
I don’t think it’s possible to look at the Russia-Ukraine war without considering the role of NATO. I care about ending this war which is devastating to working class people. I don’t think it’s a truthful analysis to say that Russia is just a big bully here who holds all the cards. If you look at Russia’s actions, most escalations on Russia’s side have been a reaction to actions from NATO. To think that more escalation from NATO will lead to a quicker end to the war is contrary to this historic pattern. Russia sees NATO as an existential threat, so it has a lot of motivation to keep fighting Ukraine to prevent NATO from spreading further to Russia’s border. NATO’s actions, to increase aggression towards Russia, only increase Russia’s motivation to keep fighting. If NATO were to pull back from Ukraine, make concessions to Russia that it will not expand further, and will allow Russia to trade and collaborate with European countries, then Russia has very little incentive to keep fighting Ukraine because they no longer see an existential threat. For Ukrainians it is devastating to be in the middle in this conflict, while not having any influence on the course of the war. But it’s a reality that I cannot change. All I can do is pressure my own government to work towards peace instead of continued aggression.
Is your argument reallly that Russia’s invasion is justified because Russia was provoked? So a good country that should be supported, totally has the right to invade another one if the other one is doing something not to your liking?
Who cares? I mean, it is a lie as the head of Russian state only really cares for money and power. But even if that would be true, that Russia would see NATO as an existential threat. Who cares? You should support Ukraine in its fight for existence and independence even if that pisses Russia. NATO or Ukraine have no obligation to please Russia.
On the contrary, Europe and other countries should take concrete actions to protect themselves. There is an obvious aggressor. If the aggressor sees your safety as their existential threat, and the aggressor is invading other countries, your only reasonable option is to be prepared to defend yourself and help others who are fighting for their existence and their independence. There’s no other choice unless your argument is “just give the aggressor what it wants, surely it’s gonna fix the problem”. And that in particular is very, very, very well studied to be wrong. An aggressor like that never stops given reduced resistance.
Everybody who is at risk of being attacked by the most prolific invader in the world that has been holding most of the world in colonial subjugation for the past few centuries.
You don’t support Ukraine’s independence from NATO, and you don’t support its people who very much do not want to keep getting abducted off the streets.
Also, why should one care about the existence of nazi governments, like nazi Germany, the US, today’s nazi Germany, Ukraine, etc. over the well-being of the people who are attacked by them?
“Nazi Germany has no obligation to please the USSR”.
Why? Why should the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, the genocidaires of Palestine be protected?
So, now, you support Russia against the most prolific invader in the world that has been invading other countries, committing genocides, and pushing for war with Russia? You seem to be very confused.
NATO expansion against Russia’s borders has been one of their red lines for over 40 years at this point. The West knew exactly how Russia would respond, and pushed Ukraine to join deliberately. This is a proxy war, and one the West appears to be tiring of; eventually they will lose interest altogether and Ukraine will be forced to surrender.
You seem to be completely oblivious to NATO expansionism:
And the atrocities NATO and the US has committed in Europe, Libya, Afghanistan, etc.
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/us_atrocities.html
I’ve never seen an etc. that held this much implied information behind it lol.
I’m not making any moral judgements. I care about ending the suffering that came from this war, and I think your analysis is based on wishful thinking and fantasy stories that you have been told about Ukraine and NATO. There’s too much for me to dissect to continue this conversation.