Yes, but also, the timing is always dangerous. Let’s removed about it all however much we want, but let’s not fall for the thought trap of growing disenfranchised from the voting process, however rigged it may be. Whatever argument you have against the system, we all have to admit that Trump winning the first time was not something even the establishment expected. If they can do surprises, so can we. Their biggest trick is to make you think your vote doesn’t matter when it so clearly does, even when the electoral college is stacked against it. The electoral college wouldn’t be so dearly protected if your vote didn’t matter.
… Not that I’m saying you personally hold these views, but I’ve seen them around enough that I feel the need to voice my thoughts as well.
If our votes matter so much, then why isn’t @JGrffn@lemmy.world mad at the democrats for not appealing to us and thus losing to the most evil man to ever exist who singularly made USA bad?
If I were in that place Id probably spend a bit more time yelling at democrats to please for gods sake get their votes! They’re single issue voters! Its so easy! Its all you have to do not let the fascist man win! Everything will be sunshine and rainbows and the bombs you drop will be Coated with candy, so for gods sake why cant you appeal to these simple single issue voters???
But then again I haven’t lost two elections to Donald Trump, so what do I know?
So its going to the definitely-not-genocidal definitely-not-israel-loving goblins at the GOP? Because any choice other than Dems, including abstinence, is a vote for GOP and Trump. It’s virtually coded into the electoral college.
Like I get hating the dems, but Jesus Christ there’s king donkey kong over there, behind them, climbing the fucking empire state while holding an underage princess (and a fuck ton of redactions) in his hand.
How the fuck does not voting for a candidate count as a vote for the other one? Are you hearing yourself? You’re just making shit up.
Not voting for candidate A doesn’t mean candidate B got a vote in any shade of reality. But somehow, in your liberal hellhole of a psyche, the two actions are seemingly indistinguishable.
This is literally elections 101 dude. You vote, someone votes against you, there’s 2 votes and theyre tied. You don’t vote, someone still votes against you, that’s one vote against you and none for you and you just lost. That is the literal scenario presented when you’re learning how to vote.
If you’re telling me you’re not voting because you’re going to bomb the Capitol and white house, or begin a revolution on election day, hey be my guest, but the truth is youll just stay home, letting others vote against you. I guess I expected too much out of you to understand such a simple concept.
In that case I can ease your mind. Everyone here didn’t vote for the democrats 1000 times, but they didnt vote for the republicans 10000 times, so we actually gave democrats 9000 votes each. Sadly we all live in Bushwick, so our votes dont matter anyway.
You vote, someone votes against you, there’s 2 votes and theyre tied. You don’t vote, someone still votes against you, that’s one vote against you
You understand this isn’t a real world scenario though, right? In the actual system America uses you vote and it doesn’t matter because someone else’s vote counted 3 times more than yours.
So you don’t vote and theirs counts even more? I’m not saying the odds aren’t stacked against you here, but your predecessors probably weren’t singing a defeatist tone due to this when it was their turn. The electoral college absolutely must burn. Letting the people benefitting from it run the country probably won’t help with that, though.
“Defeatism is when you try to change things and insist that actually a better world is possible and we don’t have to unconditionally support fascist genociders” <- You.
The hubris you have should be studied. I cannot fathom saying so much while knowing so little. To you, 10 seconds with a speak-and-spell would be an intellectual quantum leap.
The timing is not dangerous at all. The democrats themselves dont believe that “now is not the time” bullshit. They hamstring and sabotage left-wing candidates any chance they get no matter the time and place. Since the people espousing that bs dont believe it, then there is absolutely no reason I should.
Every time I hear people talking about “punishing the Democrats”, I see the full-on fascists growing in power shortly afterwards. You punished Hillary for sabotaging Bernie, Biden for being too geriatric, and Biden and Kamala for outright skipping the primaries. What happened in every scenario? The most morally bankrupt person we know just waltzed into power and started doing whatever the fuck he wanted, with some resistance at first, and then with ecstatic embrace. Are we really so eager to pave the accelerationist’s road?
Edit: oh hey I just realized it’s you from the other post on /c/USA. I got banned from that community for our little discussion. Had a reply for you and all. Hope you have a great November 3rd (or whenever elections are). I sure as shit won’t.
I do not remember you, it would probably have been easier if you had said anything novel or insightful. Or at least managed to engage with the actual things people are writing.
Nobody is talking about “punishing democrats” why do you people consistently make up arguments nobody is making? Relate to the actual position of those you disagree with, if you are so insistent on pursuing a discussion.
People are not voting for democrats because the democrats are not willing to represent them. This isn’t some self-damaging action out of spite, its basic politics - If you want a constituency, then you have to appeal to it. If you show yourself unable, unwilling or - in the case of the democrats - directly at odds with the needs of the people you want to vote for you, then you’re going to get 0 votes.
The majority of what you have written is dismissed due to the fact you’re arguing against a position no one is holding. People aren’t on some simplistic “punishment” crusade. They want things to improve and the democrats have shown themselves to be detrimental to this end. If you cannot engage with this, then your agitation is pointless because you will only manage to preach to your genocidal Choir.
It does not help your case that you then continue to hallucinate other arguments. The majority of those that voted for Bernie in the primaries voted for Hillary Clinton in the presidential election (something that cannot be said for her supporters in the '08 election by the way). She lost because she has terrible political instincts. She elevated Trump to the republican nominee through her use of the Pied Piper strategy and then managed to eat shit because she has terrible instincts. She punished herself.
Regarding Biden: He won, in large part due to leftists voting for him as a “harm reduction” candidate due to fears of Trumps mismanagement of COVID, the increased focus on what ICE had been doing (under Obama as well), a worry about foreign entanglements, mismanagement of the economy, increased bloodshed abroad, the summer of 2020 and the BLM and abolish the police movements and finally Roe V Wade.
Biden then quickly went back on his promises about stimulus checks, giving less than promised and less times, he went back on his promises about the minimum wage and debt relief, he swept COVID under the rug and opened up even though we were still in the midst of a pandemic, he did absolutely fuck all to stop Roe v Wade being overturned, he basically started a proxy war with Russia, he committed a genocide and decided to massively expand both ICE and police budgets while doing fuck all about the still deteriorating conditions of the average american and US infrastructure, instead using the work those movements had done to push through bills that gave a bunch of money to cops, the military and his friends while crushing labour rights. He crushed Union strikes and when overworked laborers on railways with fucked infrastructure had monumental disasters his administration did all it could to swipe it under the rug. On the back of this we then had Kamala Harris who said “actually all of that shit is awesome, I’m going to be doing more of it and you’re wrong about things being more expensive than they used to be while you are getting paid less. Also genocide is awesome, vote for me or the orange guy wins and he’s going to be doing a genocide.” Somehow this wasn’t a winning platform and people, desperate for an inkling of competent politics, had to organise en masse to make the obvious undeniable: Please Just Do At Least One Thing We Ask Of You, Or At Least Pretend You Will. Harris decided to ignore this and she lost.
Following her loss AIPAC has become radioactive, establishment dems are on the backfoot constantly running defense and more and more people are finally realising that unconditionally voting for a candidate promising death and destruction is not an effective way of creating change. You might make it some day too.
Accelerationist
If we really have interacted before then I know you know you are using the term wrong.
I look forward to your response where you manage to engage with nothing I write, answer no questions, hallucinate something I did not write, pretend I did not adress your many faulty arguments, make even more dogshit arguments resting on (if we are very lucky to be honest) half-remembered anecdotes with only a vague relation to reality (because we both know you’re far more likely to just outright lie and make shit up, like you’ve done here), and a painfully obvious attempt at changing the discussion to some other field you are also woefully ignorant in, because you are too prideful to acknowledge when your arguments come up short. Thats how you types always do. Or you’ll pretend to be obtuse. Maybe you’ll even call me a bot! Or just crack and use the slurs you’re so fond of using when you get mad.
Looking forward to seeing which it will be.
edit: Oh well you got banned. Such a shame now I won’t get to hear your novel insights on how genocide is good actually or how ICE concentration camps are only bad when Trump does them. Maybe next time you’ll get to tell me that I have to be realistic and accept the only way of changing things is by doing the thing we’ve been doing to no await for decades now, and anything else is unrealistic. Fire off the big guns and explain that we have to delay things, think long term, but also we cant vote third party because that would only have effects wayyy down the road and it does not make everything better immediately - As opposed to voting for the corrupt fascists actively fucking over any and all leftist candidate, which will make everything good right now.
Way to pretend there couldn’t possibly exist a leftist critique of American electoralism on a platform created by Marxists, but you do you.
Yes, but also, the timing is always dangerous. Let’s removed about it all however much we want, but let’s not fall for the thought trap of growing disenfranchised from the voting process, however rigged it may be. Whatever argument you have against the system, we all have to admit that Trump winning the first time was not something even the establishment expected. If they can do surprises, so can we. Their biggest trick is to make you think your vote doesn’t matter when it so clearly does, even when the electoral college is stacked against it. The electoral college wouldn’t be so dearly protected if your vote didn’t matter.
… Not that I’m saying you personally hold these views, but I’ve seen them around enough that I feel the need to voice my thoughts as well.
Stop referring to us as “we”, because “we” aren’t liberals. We’re not part of your base. We are communists.
We don’t vote liberal and never will.
If our votes matter so much you better believe ee not going to use them on the genocidal monsters of the DNC
If our votes matter so much, then why isn’t @JGrffn@lemmy.world mad at the democrats for not appealing to us and thus losing to the most evil man to ever exist who singularly made USA bad?
If I were in that place Id probably spend a bit more time yelling at democrats to please for gods sake get their votes! They’re single issue voters! Its so easy! Its all you have to do not let the fascist man win! Everything will be sunshine and rainbows and the bombs you drop will be Coated with candy, so for gods sake why cant you appeal to these simple single issue voters???
But then again I haven’t lost two elections to Donald Trump, so what do I know?
So its going to the definitely-not-genocidal definitely-not-israel-loving goblins at the GOP? Because any choice other than Dems, including abstinence, is a vote for GOP and Trump. It’s virtually coded into the electoral college.
Like I get hating the dems, but Jesus Christ there’s king donkey kong over there, behind them, climbing the fucking empire state while holding an underage princess (and a fuck ton of redactions) in his hand.
p -> q
Ok, then it’s a moot point because Trump is going to get 200 million votes and win in the largest landslide in US history
How the fuck does not voting for a candidate count as a vote for the other one? Are you hearing yourself? You’re just making shit up.
Not voting for candidate A doesn’t mean candidate B got a vote in any shade of reality. But somehow, in your liberal hellhole of a psyche, the two actions are seemingly indistinguishable.
This is literally elections 101 dude. You vote, someone votes against you, there’s 2 votes and theyre tied. You don’t vote, someone still votes against you, that’s one vote against you and none for you and you just lost. That is the literal scenario presented when you’re learning how to vote.
If you’re telling me you’re not voting because you’re going to bomb the Capitol and white house, or begin a revolution on election day, hey be my guest, but the truth is youll just stay home, letting others vote against you. I guess I expected too much out of you to understand such a simple concept.
Dumb as a box of rocks.
In that case I can ease your mind. Everyone here didn’t vote for the democrats 1000 times, but they didnt vote for the republicans 10000 times, so we actually gave democrats 9000 votes each. Sadly we all live in Bushwick, so our votes dont matter anyway.
You understand this isn’t a real world scenario though, right? In the actual system America uses you vote and it doesn’t matter because someone else’s vote counted 3 times more than yours.
So you don’t vote and theirs counts even more? I’m not saying the odds aren’t stacked against you here, but your predecessors probably weren’t singing a defeatist tone due to this when it was their turn. The electoral college absolutely must burn. Letting the people benefitting from it run the country probably won’t help with that, though.
“Defeatism is when you try to change things and insist that actually a better world is possible and we don’t have to unconditionally support fascist genociders” <- You.
The hubris you have should be studied. I cannot fathom saying so much while knowing so little. To you, 10 seconds with a speak-and-spell would be an intellectual quantum leap.
We’re not singing a defeated tone jackass, we aren’t on your side. Defeatism would be folding to the blue fascists
Man you’re fucking thick, lol.
The timing is not dangerous at all. The democrats themselves dont believe that “now is not the time” bullshit. They hamstring and sabotage left-wing candidates any chance they get no matter the time and place. Since the people espousing that bs dont believe it, then there is absolutely no reason I should.
Every time I hear people talking about “punishing the Democrats”, I see the full-on fascists growing in power shortly afterwards. You punished Hillary for sabotaging Bernie, Biden for being too geriatric, and Biden and Kamala for outright skipping the primaries. What happened in every scenario? The most morally bankrupt person we know just waltzed into power and started doing whatever the fuck he wanted, with some resistance at first, and then with ecstatic embrace. Are we really so eager to pave the accelerationist’s road?
Edit: oh hey I just realized it’s you from the other post on /c/USA. I got banned from that community for our little discussion. Had a reply for you and all. Hope you have a great November 3rd (or whenever elections are). I sure as shit won’t.
I do not remember you, it would probably have been easier if you had said anything novel or insightful. Or at least managed to engage with the actual things people are writing.
Nobody is talking about “punishing democrats” why do you people consistently make up arguments nobody is making? Relate to the actual position of those you disagree with, if you are so insistent on pursuing a discussion.
People are not voting for democrats because the democrats are not willing to represent them. This isn’t some self-damaging action out of spite, its basic politics - If you want a constituency, then you have to appeal to it. If you show yourself unable, unwilling or - in the case of the democrats - directly at odds with the needs of the people you want to vote for you, then you’re going to get 0 votes.
The majority of what you have written is dismissed due to the fact you’re arguing against a position no one is holding. People aren’t on some simplistic “punishment” crusade. They want things to improve and the democrats have shown themselves to be detrimental to this end. If you cannot engage with this, then your agitation is pointless because you will only manage to preach to your genocidal Choir.
It does not help your case that you then continue to hallucinate other arguments. The majority of those that voted for Bernie in the primaries voted for Hillary Clinton in the presidential election (something that cannot be said for her supporters in the '08 election by the way). She lost because she has terrible political instincts. She elevated Trump to the republican nominee through her use of the Pied Piper strategy and then managed to eat shit because she has terrible instincts. She punished herself.
Regarding Biden: He won, in large part due to leftists voting for him as a “harm reduction” candidate due to fears of Trumps mismanagement of COVID, the increased focus on what ICE had been doing (under Obama as well), a worry about foreign entanglements, mismanagement of the economy, increased bloodshed abroad, the summer of 2020 and the BLM and abolish the police movements and finally Roe V Wade.
Biden then quickly went back on his promises about stimulus checks, giving less than promised and less times, he went back on his promises about the minimum wage and debt relief, he swept COVID under the rug and opened up even though we were still in the midst of a pandemic, he did absolutely fuck all to stop Roe v Wade being overturned, he basically started a proxy war with Russia, he committed a genocide and decided to massively expand both ICE and police budgets while doing fuck all about the still deteriorating conditions of the average american and US infrastructure, instead using the work those movements had done to push through bills that gave a bunch of money to cops, the military and his friends while crushing labour rights. He crushed Union strikes and when overworked laborers on railways with fucked infrastructure had monumental disasters his administration did all it could to swipe it under the rug. On the back of this we then had Kamala Harris who said “actually all of that shit is awesome, I’m going to be doing more of it and you’re wrong about things being more expensive than they used to be while you are getting paid less. Also genocide is awesome, vote for me or the orange guy wins and he’s going to be doing a genocide.” Somehow this wasn’t a winning platform and people, desperate for an inkling of competent politics, had to organise en masse to make the obvious undeniable: Please Just Do At Least One Thing We Ask Of You, Or At Least Pretend You Will. Harris decided to ignore this and she lost.
Following her loss AIPAC has become radioactive, establishment dems are on the backfoot constantly running defense and more and more people are finally realising that unconditionally voting for a candidate promising death and destruction is not an effective way of creating change. You might make it some day too.
If we really have interacted before then I know you know you are using the term wrong.
I look forward to your response where you manage to engage with nothing I write, answer no questions, hallucinate something I did not write, pretend I did not adress your many faulty arguments, make even more dogshit arguments resting on (if we are very lucky to be honest) half-remembered anecdotes with only a vague relation to reality (because we both know you’re far more likely to just outright lie and make shit up, like you’ve done here), and a painfully obvious attempt at changing the discussion to some other field you are also woefully ignorant in, because you are too prideful to acknowledge when your arguments come up short. Thats how you types always do. Or you’ll pretend to be obtuse. Maybe you’ll even call me a bot! Or just crack and use the slurs you’re so fond of using when you get mad.
Looking forward to seeing which it will be.
edit: Oh well you got banned. Such a shame now I won’t get to hear your novel insights on how genocide is good actually or how ICE concentration camps are only bad when Trump does them. Maybe next time you’ll get to tell me that I have to be realistic and accept the only way of changing things is by doing the thing we’ve been doing to no await for decades now, and anything else is unrealistic. Fire off the big guns and explain that we have to delay things, think long term, but also we cant vote third party because that would only have effects wayyy down the road and it does not make everything better immediately - As opposed to voting for the corrupt fascists actively fucking over any and all leftist candidate, which will make everything good right now.
BlueMaga fascists literally can’t imagine someone actually be sincerely against genocide
Good