Where did I say anything about morality? I said the material support has fallen, which is a drastic shift for the lackeys of the empire. They absolutely had the cowardly option, like they always has, to let the US use their bases, defend their actions diplomatically and provide military and logistical support after the initial invasion.
The support is not there (comparatively to before). The old NATO is dead and its not just an unspoken truth anymore. The European countries are preparing to split with the US, mostly because they fear to be abandoned, but the material steps already taken will ensure that ultimately they will renegotiate the compromise NATO always was for them.
Which is why we should pay attention to how defiant (read on a toothless European scale) the rest of NATO has been post the Greenland crisis. This will increase as the material dependency on the US as a security guarantee falters further.
You didn’t, I saw it as implied.
And there is no split with NATO, that is theater and shock therapy .
Now we vassals are already impoverished from sanctions and economic consequences they could not get the population to pay more for the US wars.
They created this fake rift and just like that we’re on our own and our last cent has got to go to our defense.
‘To our defense’ in reality means being filling the bottomless hole of ukraine.
The US have outsourced the cost to us vassals so they can tackle China, Iran or whatever they want to harrass.
In 2 years when Trump is gone we’ll suddenly be friends again with a respectable US imperialist democratic president warmonger.
The extortionate war crap rates will be kept in place.
Suckered again.
We are going towards a multipolar world order and Europe knows it. There is no going back and this is not just theatrics. The “defense spending” in reality is buying independence from US vassalization. They are purposefully not buying American and laying the groundwork for another alliance where they are not subjugated.
Since I am not really getting anything for free here: No, this is still not a moral argument. The argument is that the capitalists of Europe will seek return on this investment. Trump going away, and who is to say he is, is not going to change this materially.
with the extreme increase we’re buying even more from the US even if it’s a smaller percentage.
Also you can’t just quit.
First, we don’t produce certain stuff and many things, like the shitty F-35 and complicated systems come with a decade long contract for maintenance, upgrades, etc…
Or you can end that so it’s even more money pissed away.
And I say you’re simply wrong.
We buy more because our US leaders demanded exactly that and the show will end, only after the damage is done.
We wouldn’t be buying weapons if we were so independent, we have no enemies.
Europe is economically almost dead because of the US, even if we spend money wisely it may be too late.
But that won’t happen with VDL, Kallas or the other fanatic warmongering EU clowns.
I have no problem with that. Disagreeing about the analysis is okay. The reductionist dismissal that I was doing a moral argument, I could do without.
I will not reject the possibility of your conjectured outcome either. However, I do find your analysis lacking on the part of Europe having no enemies. The nightmare scenario for the European elite is not solely Russian aggression, but getting tag teamed by both Russia and the US.
The crux of the issue is this: The US is threatening explicit subjugation if we do not play ball, and increasing vassalization if we do. The contradiction/compromise of NATO is shifting. The US needs and demands more from its vassals, I agree, but the vassals are eyeing an opportunity to reposition themselves in the emerging new world order.
There is no “Russian aggression”.
It is at best provoked reactions to US/UK/EU aggression.
We could be friends with Russia, and could’ve been for a long time if not for the US/EU fascist and rabidly anti-communist and imperialistic attitude.
That is the nightmare scenario for the US and one of the main reasons for the existence of NATO.
Firstly, “we” are not friends with any of the capitalists states, at best circumstantial allies. Secondly, I agree on NATO’s importance for the US, it is an interdependency after all.
The capitalists are not under political control, we both know it’s the other way around, so why would we expect them to subject their private wealth to financial discipline based on the strategic ambitions? They are not about to abolish capitalism, but strategically reposition themselves to maintain it.
We are also talking about different groups within the capitalist class and different time frames. The military dependency will take more than a decade to change. The investment in US stocks is record high right now due to the current financial bubble, working as intended of course, vacuuming the world for surplus value.
The contradiction remains unsolved and will increase when the bubble bursts, fascism rises yet even more and the US gets absolutely demolished by China due to the difference in long term planning and industrialisation.
Where did I say anything about morality? I said the material support has fallen, which is a drastic shift for the lackeys of the empire. They absolutely had the cowardly option, like they always has, to let the US use their bases, defend their actions diplomatically and provide military and logistical support after the initial invasion.
The support is not there (comparatively to before). The old NATO is dead and its not just an unspoken truth anymore. The European countries are preparing to split with the US, mostly because they fear to be abandoned, but the material steps already taken will ensure that ultimately they will renegotiate the compromise NATO always was for them.
Which is why we should pay attention to how defiant (read on a toothless European scale) the rest of NATO has been post the Greenland crisis. This will increase as the material dependency on the US as a security guarantee falters further.
You didn’t, I saw it as implied.
And there is no split with NATO, that is theater and shock therapy .
Now we vassals are already impoverished from sanctions and economic consequences they could not get the population to pay more for the US wars.
They created this fake rift and just like that we’re on our own and our last cent has got to go to our defense.
‘To our defense’ in reality means being filling the bottomless hole of ukraine.
The US have outsourced the cost to us vassals so they can tackle China, Iran or whatever they want to harrass.
In 2 years when Trump is gone we’ll suddenly be friends again with a respectable US imperialist democratic president warmonger.
The extortionate war crap rates will be kept in place.
Suckered again.
We are going towards a multipolar world order and Europe knows it. There is no going back and this is not just theatrics. The “defense spending” in reality is buying independence from US vassalization. They are purposefully not buying American and laying the groundwork for another alliance where they are not subjugated.
Since I am not really getting anything for free here: No, this is still not a moral argument. The argument is that the capitalists of Europe will seek return on this investment. Trump going away, and who is to say he is, is not going to change this materially.
with the extreme increase we’re buying even more from the US even if it’s a smaller percentage.
Also you can’t just quit.
First, we don’t produce certain stuff and many things, like the shitty F-35 and complicated systems come with a decade long contract for maintenance, upgrades, etc…
Or you can end that so it’s even more money pissed away.
And I say you’re simply wrong.
We buy more because our US leaders demanded exactly that and the show will end, only after the damage is done.
We wouldn’t be buying weapons if we were so independent, we have no enemies.
Europe is economically almost dead because of the US, even if we spend money wisely it may be too late.
But that won’t happen with VDL, Kallas or the other fanatic warmongering EU clowns.
I have no problem with that. Disagreeing about the analysis is okay. The reductionist dismissal that I was doing a moral argument, I could do without.
I will not reject the possibility of your conjectured outcome either. However, I do find your analysis lacking on the part of Europe having no enemies. The nightmare scenario for the European elite is not solely Russian aggression, but getting tag teamed by both Russia and the US.
The crux of the issue is this: The US is threatening explicit subjugation if we do not play ball, and increasing vassalization if we do. The contradiction/compromise of NATO is shifting. The US needs and demands more from its vassals, I agree, but the vassals are eyeing an opportunity to reposition themselves in the emerging new world order.
There is no “Russian aggression”.
It is at best provoked reactions to US/UK/EU aggression.
We could be friends with Russia, and could’ve been for a long time if not for the US/EU fascist and rabidly anti-communist and imperialistic attitude.
That is the nightmare scenario for the US and one of the main reasons for the existence of NATO.
And here some facts that confirm all this posturing and independence talk is nonsense.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sell-america-buyers-europe-piled-into-treasuries-2025-data-shows-2026-01-22/ https://www.reddit.com/r/InBitcoinWeTrust/comments/1qo6471/europeans_are_piling_into_us_stocks_european/#lightbox
Firstly, “we” are not friends with any of the capitalists states, at best circumstantial allies. Secondly, I agree on NATO’s importance for the US, it is an interdependency after all.
The capitalists are not under political control, we both know it’s the other way around, so why would we expect them to subject their private wealth to financial discipline based on the strategic ambitions? They are not about to abolish capitalism, but strategically reposition themselves to maintain it.
We are also talking about different groups within the capitalist class and different time frames. The military dependency will take more than a decade to change. The investment in US stocks is record high right now due to the current financial bubble, working as intended of course, vacuuming the world for surplus value.
The contradiction remains unsolved and will increase when the bubble bursts, fascism rises yet even more and the US gets absolutely demolished by China due to the difference in long term planning and industrialisation.