The message isn’t “Democrats cannot be trusted to represent our interests, they are our opposition to radical change……” it’s “Nobody within our government gives a shit about our interests.” And they won’t until we get new blood in, but that doesn’t happen at the top, it happens at the bottom, and we force it to the top through years and years of consistent voting. The liberals who make up the democratic party aren’t going anywhere until they’re replaced, but even their replacements are liberals. Again, we need to change the bottom to change the top.
But, what do we do as we’re getting to the top? Do we just abstain from voting and let the Republicans pump more and more money into ICE for the next decade or two? Or do we vote for the weak, spineless liberals who won’t fix anything, but also won’t make things as bad as the Republicans would? Or do we vote for the 3rd party voters who 90% of the country hasn’t even heard of, much less intends to vote for? We’ve seen what happens when people do that, and it’s just as bad as voting for the Republicans themselves.
So please, tell me who I should actually vote for for president in the coming years, between the times where positive change hopefully starts to grow in the local elevations, but before it can reach up to the top and actually put forward a viable presidential candidate that even the people who aren’t paying attention will vote for. Because the people whose family members got carted off to the next Alligator Auschwitz will want to know if we let the tyrants in on a technicality, or if we at least voted for their asshole younger brothers instead, since nobody else stood a chance of being in charge otherwise in the meantime.
I don’t care if some liberal, who is never going to change one way or another, gets a big head because people voted for them, I care if they’re going to be as bad as their republican counterpart during the time it takes for us to make the changes that we need to make that will actually change our government for the better, because the government itself is never going to do so.
The message isn’t “Democrats cannot be trusted to represent our interests, they are our opposition to radical change……” it’s “Nobody within our government gives a shit about our interests.”
Even that message is confused by following it with “but we must vote for them anyway”. Either the system is broken and we must rebel, or the system can be mitigated by dutiful participation. There’s no middle ground where we can minimize the decent into enslavement by biding our time until the revolution comes.
So please, tell me who I should actually vote for for president in the coming years
Vote for whoever the fuck you want. You wont change anything by voting for liberals, because liberals will increasingly lose regardless because people are that much more apathetic about them every cycle. If you want to prevent republicans from tearing everything down, then don’t waste your time with lesser-evil bullshit. Spend that time agitating other liberals - make them see how complacently participating in a system that enslaves them only serves to ensure it will always enslave them. The only candidates worth voting for are those that the democratic establishment actively opposes.
By all means, vote for your favorite benevolent fascist. Just stop pretending like the strategy is to quietly comply with democratic obstruction until exactly the right moment when we all suddenly stand up and rebel against them, while simultaneously complaining about how leftist candidates just aren’t popular because none of these liberals ever vote for them (see how circular this bullshit is?). That isn’t how leftist organizing works. We gain momentum by showing how broken liberalism is, and we can’t do that if we’re sheep-dogging other leftists into committing themselves for the shitlib du jour 3 years in advance. Democrats get our vote only if the represent our interests. full-stop
You might think of yourself as a leftist, but from where i’m sitting you’re just a liberal in denial.
There’s no middle ground where we can minimize the decent into enslavement by biding our time until the revolution comes.
Nobody is “biding their time” for a revolution; we’re getting angrier and angrier by the day - it’s nearly inevitable. Unless a political change happens, and quickly, it’s coming. But still, it takes time, and voting will happen in the meantime. To ignore the entirety of the voting system simply because it’s going to be overthrown anyway is dumb - these is a modicum of good we can do by making sure the country is in the least-terrible position that we can when we finish preparing (note: not waiting) for the revolution, and it’s pretty clear that one side is better than the other.
However, the original poster I responded to has made me aware that the 2018 election in Mexico was actually a lot more similar to a US election than I first thought, and it’s made me wonder if rallying people around a new party may actually be a viable choice. I’m still looking into it, but there may be a 3rd way to get ourselves out of this. Regardless, ignoring tools at our disposal simply because they won’t fix things on their own is not going to make things any better. Even if the world is only a fraction of a percent better with a democrat in charge over a republican, it’s a better choice than nothing. Hopefully a 3rd party option is more viable than I initially thought, though.
Unless a political change happens, and quickly, it’s coming
What is?.. Revolution? I mean way to be an optimist I guess…
to ignore the entirety of the voting system simply because it’s going to be overthrown anyway is dumb
I’m not advocating we ignore the electoral system
I don’t want/think we will be overthrowing democracy
I’m advocating that we roundly object to liberal democracy - e.g. democracy revolving around individual capitalist principles. Vote, but vote for working-class representation. I roundly reject the idea that 3rd party voting or uncommitted votes are pointless or ill-advised, so long as liberals refuse to acknowledge the popular momentum of their base. If an acceptable candidate from the left flank does emerge, vote for them, by all means. Participate in primaries, canvas for quality representation. In the end, vote however you want. But certainly don’t be running around whipping support for a milquetoast shitlib just because it’s a lesser-evil to a republican, and don’t be shaming others for sticking to their principles and holding democrats to a higher standard. *You cannot organize on lesser-evil electoral politics.
The message isn’t “Democrats cannot be trusted to represent our interests, they are our opposition to radical change……” it’s “Nobody within our government gives a shit about our interests.” And they won’t until we get new blood in, but that doesn’t happen at the top, it happens at the bottom, and we force it to the top through years and years of consistent voting. The liberals who make up the democratic party aren’t going anywhere until they’re replaced, but even their replacements are liberals. Again, we need to change the bottom to change the top.
But, what do we do as we’re getting to the top? Do we just abstain from voting and let the Republicans pump more and more money into ICE for the next decade or two? Or do we vote for the weak, spineless liberals who won’t fix anything, but also won’t make things as bad as the Republicans would? Or do we vote for the 3rd party voters who 90% of the country hasn’t even heard of, much less intends to vote for? We’ve seen what happens when people do that, and it’s just as bad as voting for the Republicans themselves.
So please, tell me who I should actually vote for for president in the coming years, between the times where positive change hopefully starts to grow in the local elevations, but before it can reach up to the top and actually put forward a viable presidential candidate that even the people who aren’t paying attention will vote for. Because the people whose family members got carted off to the next Alligator Auschwitz will want to know if we let the tyrants in on a technicality, or if we at least voted for their asshole younger brothers instead, since nobody else stood a chance of being in charge otherwise in the meantime.
I don’t care if some liberal, who is never going to change one way or another, gets a big head because people voted for them, I care if they’re going to be as bad as their republican counterpart during the time it takes for us to make the changes that we need to make that will actually change our government for the better, because the government itself is never going to do so.
Even that message is confused by following it with “but we must vote for them anyway”. Either the system is broken and we must rebel, or the system can be mitigated by dutiful participation. There’s no middle ground where we can minimize the decent into enslavement by biding our time until the revolution comes.
Vote for whoever the fuck you want. You wont change anything by voting for liberals, because liberals will increasingly lose regardless because people are that much more apathetic about them every cycle. If you want to prevent republicans from tearing everything down, then don’t waste your time with lesser-evil bullshit. Spend that time agitating other liberals - make them see how complacently participating in a system that enslaves them only serves to ensure it will always enslave them. The only candidates worth voting for are those that the democratic establishment actively opposes.
By all means, vote for your favorite benevolent fascist. Just stop pretending like the strategy is to quietly comply with democratic obstruction until exactly the right moment when we all suddenly stand up and rebel against them, while simultaneously complaining about how leftist candidates just aren’t popular because none of these liberals ever vote for them (see how circular this bullshit is?). That isn’t how leftist organizing works. We gain momentum by showing how broken liberalism is, and we can’t do that if we’re sheep-dogging other leftists into committing themselves for the shitlib du jour 3 years in advance. Democrats get our vote only if the represent our interests. full-stop
You might think of yourself as a leftist, but from where i’m sitting you’re just a liberal in denial.
Nobody is “biding their time” for a revolution; we’re getting angrier and angrier by the day - it’s nearly inevitable. Unless a political change happens, and quickly, it’s coming. But still, it takes time, and voting will happen in the meantime. To ignore the entirety of the voting system simply because it’s going to be overthrown anyway is dumb - these is a modicum of good we can do by making sure the country is in the least-terrible position that we can when we finish preparing (note: not waiting) for the revolution, and it’s pretty clear that one side is better than the other.
However, the original poster I responded to has made me aware that the 2018 election in Mexico was actually a lot more similar to a US election than I first thought, and it’s made me wonder if rallying people around a new party may actually be a viable choice. I’m still looking into it, but there may be a 3rd way to get ourselves out of this. Regardless, ignoring tools at our disposal simply because they won’t fix things on their own is not going to make things any better. Even if the world is only a fraction of a percent better with a democrat in charge over a republican, it’s a better choice than nothing. Hopefully a 3rd party option is more viable than I initially thought, though.
What is?.. Revolution? I mean way to be an optimist I guess…
I’m advocating that we roundly object to liberal democracy - e.g. democracy revolving around individual capitalist principles. Vote, but vote for working-class representation. I roundly reject the idea that 3rd party voting or uncommitted votes are pointless or ill-advised, so long as liberals refuse to acknowledge the popular momentum of their base. If an acceptable candidate from the left flank does emerge, vote for them, by all means. Participate in primaries, canvas for quality representation. In the end, vote however you want. But certainly don’t be running around whipping support for a milquetoast shitlib just because it’s a lesser-evil to a republican, and don’t be shaming others for sticking to their principles and holding democrats to a higher standard. *You cannot organize on lesser-evil electoral politics.